I am privileged to have been asked to speak at an upcoming local meeting called TEDxOverlake (the site is still without the lineup and structure of the day’s event). This program is one of the hundreds of “TEDx” regional meetings affiliated with the TED (Technology, Entertainment, & Design) programs that I’ve become so enamored of in the last year or two. They involve bringing together a group of people for a diverse array of oral presentations on perhaps tangentially related topics, each one a maximum of 18 minutes, and the antithesis of the “death by powerpoint” standard that has defined and ultimately all but ruined the concept of presentations, in which a speaker reads in a monotone voice verbatim from a text-heavy bulleted slide collection. TED talks redefine presenting as something closer to the art form of storytelling, dating as far back as tribes of people gathered around campfires. It’s just that this campfire is an LCD projector, but the concept is to reinstate the good name of presentations as compelling and influential.
The theme for the conference is learning, very deliberately not restricted to the concept of kids learning at desks in a classroom, but the dynamic range of what constitutes learning throughout our lives. I’ll be speaking specifically on the concept behind GRACE of patients and caregivers learning about cancer through online and other resources, in order to be a direct participant in your own cancer care: essentially “Learning as if You’re Life Depends on It” (did it grab your attention?).
Though I’m used to public speaking, our standard is the usual low bar of being reasonably articulate while talking about scientific ideas and rigidly adhering to what the evidence shows. Speaking in a very compelling way is quite a departure from even being very strong in your skills as a presenter in the scientific/medical scene. So I’ve been thinking and reading and learning about how to deliver a talk that delights and motivates an audience, and it’s given me some insight into communicating in the context of GRACE as well.
The concept of how we present information on GRACE is based in evidence-based medicine, the concept that we make our recommendations for work-up and treatment based on what the data from well-conducted clinical trials tell us. I and the other members of the faculty provide answers based on survival curves and other statistics from clinical trials with as large a population as we can get. But everyone who has been here for a while knows that the results for a population are of only limited value as we see the range of results for the individuals within that population. What really motivates us is what we can relate to: the stories of what happens with actual people we think are, in some way, like us.
It shouldn’t surprise us, then, that patients hearing about the favorable results for someone on the forum who received a certain drug or participating on a clinical trial had a very good result. Similarly, the warnings from someone who had a difficult time tolerating a particular treatment may be very worrisome if we’re scheduled to start that same therapy. We may have learned that, in a broad population, a certain treatment has a low response rate or has minimal side effects, but if we meet someone in the clinic, or in the online community, who has had an especially good or bad experience, it looms large in how we think about that approach: beyond what should count for one person in a large population.
That’s because our brains are built to be receptive to the stories of individual people — especially people like us. We are all drawn to the “before and after” cases of terrific results with cancer treatment or weight loss products or cosmetic surgery, which influence us far more than the curves and statistics showing an abstract measurement of outcomes in 1000 people we don’t see a picture of or know personally. And oncologists and other physicians do this too: when I speak to a group of oncologists, my discussions of agents like Tarceva (erlotinib) or crizotinib include not only the results from big studies but also personal stories of anecdotal cases and images of scans before and after treatment. These cases are more influential to us than the statistics, and for all of our worship of “the evidence”, we are all — patients and caregivers and doctors alike — swayed incredibly by the stories of individual cases that burn indelibly in our memories.
It’s the same pattern throughout our lives. We may have read a favorable review of a restaurant, but if a friend relates a terrible experience, we’ll weigh that far more heavily than a professional critic’s experience. Even more impressively, we care very deeply what strangers think: most of us wouldn’t buy tickets to a movie we’re in line for if the people behind us if several people behind us told us it was awful.
The reality is that stories can’t and shouldn’t replace actual quality data. Without looking at the results of a well-conducted study, we’d never have learned that people were being harmed by taking Iressa after chemo and radiation for locally advanced NSCLC in the SWOG 0023 trial. We’d never have learned that Alimta is an effective therapy only for patients with a non-squamous NSCLC histology. There are many things you can only appreciate from 20,000 feet. And at least as importantly, the FDA and insurance companies use the evidence far more than testimonials to decide whether to approve a particular strategy (though it’s no coincidence that drug companies bring individual patients to speak in heartfelt testimonials to the FDA at hearings to consider whether to approve a new agent — they want to pull at the heartstrings of people who are charged to make decisions based on the evidence).
At the same time, I think it’s helpful for us to try to recognize when we’re being manipulated by these efforts. Sometimes it’s a way to open the door to what the evidence should also show you, even if it can’t make as strong an argument. At other times, it’s an attempt to redirect your attention away from what the evidence should tell you, hoping that manipulating your emotions will override the conclusions your rational brain should provide.
I’d love to hear people’s thoughts on how much or how little the arguments here about “what the evidence tells us” is really important compared with personal recommendations from the doctors based on our judgment, or from other patients and caregivers based on their experiences. How important are statistics versus the stories of the individuals behind them? There are definitely many people who simply don’t care about the evidence compared with the outcomes of a case of someone who once took a particular treatment and happened to do well.
Also, I’m happy to reinforce my own ideas with some poignant stories. I’m looking for examples of people who have experienced a dramatically better outcome based on the new information they have obtained through their own efforts to learn, either here or elsewhere. I hope you’ll share your thoughts and stories with me, either as a comment below or via an e-mail to me at west@cancergrace.org.
PS: the TED talks are recorded on video, so even though the one I’ll be speaking at will be a relatively intimate affair, I’ll post it for everyone to see and forward to 500 of their friends.
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Dr. West,
I’m so pleased that you’ve been given the opportunity to speak at this event. I hope it gives you a chance to Evangelize the GRACE model of medical professional-patient/caregiver interaction, as well as GRACE itself.
You’ve asked several questions. Let me address them in turn, summary. More details are gratefully available, should you like them.
> How important are statistics versus the stories of the individuals behind them?
The statistics are vitally important to me, but individual stories provide a “priority interrupt”. Here are examples:
1. The epidemiological evidence that daily cod liver oil consumption reduces mortality risks for lung cancer patients by 44% leads me to have my wife take 15 ml (1 Tbsp) cod liver oil daily.
2. The anecdotal evidence that one of our beloved GRACE members did so well, for so long, on Vinorelbine (Navelbine), leads me to not discard it as “old news” when thinking about future therapies.
> examples of people who have experienced a dramatically better outcome based on the new information they have obtained through their own efforts to learn, either here or elsewhere
I have two examples, one from before I found GRACE (BG), and another since then (AG).
BG. When my wife was undergoing adjuvant chemotherapy at CSMC, the discussion with her Oncologist naturally turned to “what’s next”. At the time (May 2007), he was considering her for a trial for Iressa, but then the results presented at the June ASCO were less than ideal[2]. So, we discussed radiation of the mediastinum. Further research, done by me and my wife together, suggested:
I. Following Stage IIIA adenocarcinoma of the lung, the risk of brain metastases is high, particularly for trimodality-treated patients
II. Waiting for brain metastasis to occur, and then treating, results in poor quality of life and poor chance of surviva
III. The benefits of PCI (PCR) are substantial
IV. The side effects of PCI are manageable and dramatically less than the side effects of a brain
metastasis
V. PCI (PCR) is an appropriate next step in treatment
We then provided an 8 page white paper expanding on these points, with 46 references (to academic sources) and 8 appendices. While initially opposed to PCI, the Medical Oncologist deferred to the Radiation Oncologist, who agreed with our perspective. The PCI was performed, with only transient measurable (or noticeable) effects, and no brain mets. Would the latter have been the case without PCI. On an individual basis, there is no way to know. However, the data suggests strongly that, on average, PCI prevents brain mets in patients such as my wife. (Sadly, the clinical trial that could have offered more insight into this did not complete, as I recall).
AG. Based on comments and readings from 2007 and Iressa, I had (erroneously) believed that taking an EGFR TKI was a “last option” and a short-lived one, at best. When my wife began to progress in January while on maintenance Alimta, I feared all was lost. I desperately began searching the Internet, and, around May of 2010, found that this clever fellow, Dr. Howard (Jack) West, was blogging about ASCO. Our Oncologist was going to meet with Dr. Ross Camidge of UCH to help arrange a consult by him of my wife regarding the use of Tarceva as her next treatment. I was relieved to read of the efficacy of Tarceva, both in terms of the numerous studies quoted and reviewed here, and the individual stores provided by patients and caregivers. So, both my intellectual need (for evidence) and my human need (for personal experiences from others) were served.
- Joe S.
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Footnotes:
1. Skeie G, Braaten T, HjartÄker A, Brustad M, Lund E. Cod liver oil, other dietary supplements and survival among cancer patients with solid tumours. Int J Cancer. 2009 Sep 1;125(5):1155-60
2. A good example of how using the latest findings can be misleading. As she is EGFR+ (not known then), and that Iressa (getfinib) (and, of course, Tarceva (erlotinib)) generally work very well with EGFR+ patients, it likely would have been a good fit for her.
Hi Dr. West,
This is great. I love TED talks, and I’m so glad you’ll be able to share yours with us.
I am an epidemiologist, and by definition, a big believer in evidence generated through studying populations. However, I realize that such evidence is limited by resources (e.g., there are often insufficient funds for the “perfect” study, or for studies that address all relevant nuances), logistics (e.g., it’s too complicated to conduct the perfect study), and the foresight and creativity of the researcher (i.e., didn’t come up with a great way to answer the questions that need answering). So I love to hear about the evidence, but I also take it with a grain of salt.
In my job, we sometimes respond to disease outbreaks. Often we glean extremely important clues by talking in detail with a few people affected by the outbreak– some odd practice or exposure will be related by a couple of them, and that will send us off down the correct path to understand and stop the outbreak. I think it might be the same, to some extent, with medicine: did the first Asian female nonsmokers with adenocarcinomas who did great on Iressa change treatment practices and thereby benefit many patients before the “evidence” became clear (IPASS was reported)? I know that even if IPASS hadn’t been released at the time we were figuring out a treatment plan for my mom, I would have been swayed by the stories of response among the people with a similar phenotype as my mom.
Thanks for doing this. I look forward to hearing your talk.
Anna
Though not a medical whiz, I am able to research. I believe we should all be responsible for our treatment. If you were to suggest something to me, I would research it first medically and also talk to others that might have had that specific treatment. It’s not one opinion I look at but many. I look at all the positives and negatives and if I’m not sure of something-I ask GRACE! And others! I believe in evidence based medicine. I like to know I’m trying something that’s been tested by many others and I’m able to read about known side-effects. I then decide if it’s doable for me. I think one subject that keeps coming up, and I’ve seen it so much lately is WBR. People are totally in fear of the possible side-effects that have been reported online. Though many that have had it done have talked of few if any side effects. I think talking with others that are going through treatment is helpful but people should know that it may not work for them. We would all like that instant cure, but it’s not out there yet. Thanks for asking for our input. I look forward to your follow-up.
Take care, Judy
Dr. West,
People hear what they want to hear. I do not suggest that any one wants to hear bad news but I believe that if you expect and are conditioned to hear the worse, then that it is what you hear or perceive to hear. I find myself wanting to hear your opinion and I put more weight on what you say than the studies you site. Statistics are faceless.
Dr. West,
Fantastic question !
Unfortunately, my husband and I have had the experience that evidence has been used negatively. Two examples from the first hospital that treated my husband for his stage IV cancer.
Our question: “could radiation of the adrenal gland be useful ?” Answer: “We have no experience of radiation to adrenal glands for stage IV patients, so we cannot recommend that”
Our question: “could tarceva be useful?” Answer: “You can get a terrible rash and you will relapse in less than a year, anyway”
Alternatively the answers could have been:
“There are studies and cases which under some conditions support radiation, let us discuss when you initial chemo treatment is through” and
“The duration of how long time Tarceva works and the degree of side effects vary from patient to patient. Let us discuss when you initial chemo treatment is through”, respectively.
Data, whether presented as an anecdotal case or by highlighting some study data and not others, will still be subject to selective presentation to lead people to the view they hope to lead a person to.
I always find it amazing that even when presented with evidence about treatment, many patients do not come to similar conclusions or that it even motivates some to look in a particular direction. I am sure personality is a factor as well as where they happen to be in the process of accepting this disease. I am always incredibly saddened at: 1. The number of patients who have no idea what kind of lung cancer they have or what drugs they are receiving and 2. The number of patients who despite the evidence to the contrary will believe their docs who tell them there is nothing else that can be done.
Through GRACE I have been able to bring things to the attention of my wonderful doctor, that would not been on our radar at all. I am receiving Nexavar as a result of Dr. West’s post on its use in clinical trials for kras mutation. GRACE provides the best of both worlds as I can learn from patients whom I have grown to admire and respect as well. I asked for and received a brain MRI that found mets before becoming symptomatic because of the experience of one of the GRACE family members.
I do think there needs to be a “common sense’ balance of evidence based information and individual patient experiences. I think the one thing that I have always found comforting in this process is the ability of my docs to really listen and look at me as an individual and not be totally driven by evidence that is often incomplete or not there at all. I am hopeful, that someday clinical trials and other research will provide information that is just not available now, but until then, I think we do have to rely somewhat on looking at the experience of patients whose disease process may be similar. GRACE provides a perfect platform for doing just that.
Dr. West,
Congratulations on being invited to speak at TEDx. I’d hoped there would be more discussions about cancer (there are a couple of good ones there now), so maybe this is a start.
When I was diagnosed in 2006, I was at a loss and didn’t immediately go online to research, although that was my MO for almost everything else. Complete ignorance led me to believe I’d have part of a lung removed, do chemo, etc and be just fine, like John Wayne! The first oncologist informed me I was Stage IV, incurable, what therapy was usually administered, and that my 20 minutes were up so if I had any more questions, I’d need another appointment. Another onc offered a Genentech trial of doublet w/ Avastin, followed by randomization to Avastin + erlotinib or + placebo. Not knowing where to research this online resulted in my seeking 2nd opinions at UCSF and UC Davis, at great expense. I just wanted someone to tell me I was doing the right thing! Both thought the trial was reasonable. Once I found GRACE and learned how trials work, I discovered both institutions were running the same trial, so of course they approved. If only I’d known what questions to ask.
GRACE held my hand through a painful learning curve where I found information about my lung cancer histology, got the idea of possibly being EGFR+, and was able to “bully” my doctor into allowing me to crossover to Tarceva when Avastin failed, at a time when he wanted to take me off the study to put me on Alimta. Much later I realized IV chemo was profitable whereas oral agents were not, but mostly, I recall vividly the argument we had in May 2007:
Me: “My vote is to stay on the study and crossover to Tarceva.”
Onc (blank look on his face): “I don’t believe in the study. My plan is to start you on Alimta, which is used in mesothelioma. You have alot of disease. I don’t think Tarceva will work for you.”
Me: “What? But I fit the profile for possibly having the mutation! Asian, female, non-smoker, young. Has my tumor been tested? I’d like to try Tarceva and have my tumor tested, please!”
The clinical trial nurse intervened later with a phone call, stating Genentech agreed to allow use of Alimta + Tarceva on the study, and my oncologist really wants me to have a good quality of life. To this day, my tumor STILL hasn’t been tested, but my new onc is working on it. Again, it wasn’t until much later that I discovered the concept of treatment order and stretching agents out as long as possible.
Knowledge is power. GRACE has given me hope and a leg to stand on through evidence-based and anecdotal data, informed discussions, and the compassion and sharing of others. Two years ago, a community member contacted me personally through GRACE’s forum to relate his aunt’s experience on a trial I’d asked about. I didn’t have to enroll in the trial but her experience dulled my interest considerably.
Apologies for such a long post. My new onc is working on getting my tumor tested, and seems receptive when I e-mail him links to GRACE posts. You can bet I’ll be sending your TED talk to him.
Jazz